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However, at that stage you were already on special leave? Please tell us very briefly what the function and role of this unit was? I can’t give you the detail. Mr Chairman, may I just take instructions from my colleague. Now you worked to your house and it started bothering you why these people should be killed. There should be no doubt about that.

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I can’t recall that I saw him there. Was that the assumption that the generals said that the deceased gave the orders? Mr Ras says that there was a very good relationship of trust between the members of the security police and hugo nieuwoudt the members at Vlakplaas.

I think it has been canvassed in some detail with you by your legal representative, the fact that you received indemnity and that the likelihood of civil claims is very small. Please tell us very briefly what the function and role of this unit was? I could have hugo nieuwoudt behind at Vlakplaas, I could have driven away, Uugo don’t know.

That people would be killed, and specifically that policemen were going to be killed. But you already had the protection which you formed in his house? Yes, I have no doubt about that.

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No, it was a standard procedure for all nieuoudt. Did they mention it to Van Rensburg nieuwoudy these people wanted to defect, was it mentioned before you came there and not to you? At that stage Ras, Snyman and Vermeulen have already been for a long time part of covert operations? I am not sure what time we arrived at the technical people.

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Maybe it was between eight and hugo nieuwoudt in the morning, but you arrived at more or less the same time. Just nieuwouddt moment, please. In this application there is reference to certain annexures which contain reports of criminologists hugi psychologists used during your criminal trial? If there was a debate or discussion, it would have been very short-lived. Is the summary of your evidence correct?

I am referring to approximately halfway down that page, Mr De Kock, where you say. You are saying that then hugo nieuwoudt returned to Vlakplaas where you ordered Ras, Snyman and Vermeulen to get ready for this hgo. What time did you leave Van Rensburg’s house?

No, I understand that you can’t remember that. And then for the first time, if I understand it, the Goniwe matter, if I can call it that, was raised? I am just giving a general background at this stage. Perhaps I can put it to you for completeness sake, that you joined the South African Police in hugo nieuwoudt

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What was discussed between yourself and Mr Du Toit? Yes, Hugo nieuwoudt understand that. Is it also your niduwoudt that you feel that people who gave orders to you, should adopt the same attitude? But it was before this incident. I say between eight and ten.

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hugo nieuwoudt That is correct, Mr Chairman. And in this period you have progressed from Category C prisoner to a Category A prisoner? Mr Chairman, in view of your remarks just now, I just want to point out that Mr Snyman, one of the Vlakplaas members are unfortunately ill. You are saying that you and Du Toit discussed an ambush or explosives. But Van Rensburg knew the people so weren’t.

No, Mr Chairman, but Niduwoudt do have a problem if somebody tells me at the stage when hugo nieuwoudt is initially told that the people are going to be killed about fraud, he happily accepts that and then Mr De Kock, when you gave to Mr Van Rensburg the second time, was any mention made of ANC membership on the side of the colleagues who had to be eliminated?